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tones again, some hard evidence
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owen -

I always used to wonder about tones in music. I now realize they are impossible* (at least in the
westernized pop music, couldn't comment on any traditional forms). One can only conclude that
chinese lyrics must be lacking in expressiveness being deprived of such a crucial indicator of
meaning. That is to say, unless one is singing in a very predictable context, a purely aural
listener would easily get lost.

*i'm just waiting for someone to come in and try to tell me that they can hear tones when they
listen to pop music. When i was beginning to learn chinese and asked people about this many csl
learners told me they could hear them but no native speakers could honestly say the same. I guess
in a sense they may have been hearing them in their mind's ear.



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HashiriKata -



Quote:

*i'm just waiting for someone to come in and try to tell me that they can hear tones when they
listen to pop music.

I certainly can hear tones in music !
But let's not be making sweeping claims here: the problems with tone in Chinese music is not far
different from the situations we may face with music in any other languages. In English, we
sometimes have no problems with understanding (=making out the words in) the lyrics and at other
times we have no clues what's being sung. Even when we know/understand the lyrics, we also realise
that sometimes the pronunciation is a bit off the way we normally speak. Chinese tones are
similarly sometimes distorted due to the contour of the music or the type of the music, but not
always and not in normal circumstances. Anyway, there have been interesting discussions about this
relation in this forums, try a search and you may find them.










roddy -



Quote:

That is to say, unless one is singing in a very predictable context, a purely aural listener would
easily get lost.

There's not a more predictable context than a Chinese pop song . . .










owen -



Quote:

Chinese tones are similarly sometimes distorted due to the contour of the music or the type of the
music, but not always and not in normal circumstances.

i don't think their sometimes distorted. I'm 100% sure that they are almost never there. Unless
you're listening to some very strange songs that build the tones into the melody (which would
sound pretty strange, i'd be interested to hear), then it's impossible to simultaneously sing a
melody (as we know it) and account for tones.

As for the predictable context, imagine a song like this being sung in chinese. I think without a
lyric sheet the listener would be totally lost. Whereas most of the words can be understood in
english if one pays close attention.
Points for identifying the song by the way.

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane -
Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn -
world serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs. Feed it up a knock,
speed, grunt no, strength no. Ladder structure clatter with fear of height,
down height. Wire in a fire, represent the seven games in a government for
hire and a combat site. Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with the furies
breathing down your neck. Team by team reporters baffled, trump, tethered
crop. Look at that low plane! Fine then. Uh oh, overflow, population,
common group, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its
own needs, listen to your heart bleed. Tell me with the rapture and the
reverent in the right - right. You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright
light, feeling pretty psyched.










in_lab -

In Chinese the listener would have a really hard time making sense of all that, but the same goes
for English. If those lyrics have meaning for you, it is probably only because you have read and
thought about the lyrics. After "It starts with an earthquake," the words don't really mean
anything to me.










wai ming -



Quote:


Originally Posted by owen

Unless you're listening to some very strange songs that build the tones into the melody (which
would sound pretty strange, i'd be interested to hear), then it's impossible to simultaneously
sing a melody (as we know it) and account for tones.


AFAIK, most Cantonese songs follow the tones in their melodies.










owen -

in_lab, you missed my point. All i'm saying is that the words themselves, individually can, for
the most part, be deciphered. Like if walked up to you and said 'horse sunny jazz then italicize
ballon can't soup very', you might look puzzled but you would know the words which had been said.
I'm not sure the same could be done in chinese, at least not in a song.

I asked my friend who majored in jazz vocal and who currently sings pop and jazz with a few
different ensembles. I asked her whether she has ever heard any canto pop and she said she had.
Then i also showed her a jolin tsai song and she said in that song or in any canto pop she's heard
she didn't notice any marked difference between the singing style of those songs and western pop,
i.e. no tones in either.
Someone should do a test. Get a native speaker who can sing decently and then write a randomn
string of characters. Ask them to sing it to some popular tune and have another native speaker
listen. Then see how many tones they can get right. I'd bet my life they would get no more than
pure chance would allow.










wai ming -

Erm, just a minor point... but I'm pretty sure Jolin Tsai doesn't sing in Cantonese

And while there might not be any difference in singing style, the tones of the lyrics of most
Cantonese songs will fit the melodies. You might find this link of interest.










Quest -



Quote:

the tones of the lyrics of most Cantonese songs will fit the melodies.

Too much so now that the lyrics become nonsensical garbage.










in_lab -

Owen, I understood your point, but what I meant is that it doesn't really matter. In Chinese it
can be difficult to understand words devoid of meaningful context, but words that are devoid of
meaningful context are essentially meaningless. In English, you understand the words, but they
mean nothing.












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